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#1 Toyin

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 12:41 PM

I’m taking part in a BBC Radio 4 series called the great debate. The two face-off arguments of the show I’m on is the ideology of Dr Martin Luther King v Malik el-Shabazz (Malcolm X). I’m representing Malcolm and am curious to read points of view of forum members.

I know both strategies were needed.

I know despite popular belief it is not a simple debate about non violence v violence.

Some say that Martin was assassinated because he started to become more radical, is this true? If so exactly how did this radicalism manifest itself?

#2 Sankofa

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 01:01 PM

which person are you? ( so we can come up with counterarguments for you to practise with)

#3 Mogho Naaba

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 05:19 PM

When I state my views on MLK it always causes a lot of fire so I'll keep quiet this time. cool.gif

Edited by PRINCE HAKEEM, 30 November 2005 - 05:19 PM.


#4 Sankofa

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 09:23 PM

sorry didnt ready you post carefully............ok i'll be martin for the sake of the argument ,just to make sure you destroy whoever it is you are debating against.

i will post an argument in martin's favour

#5 Toyin

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 10:02 PM

Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier. It’s a bit late now for me to do this now, It’s been a busy week and I desperately need some sleep before I go into battle.

Lets put this on hold for a few days and then re-enact what will be my obvious victory. wink.gif

#6 Voo

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 12:43 PM

Prince Hakeem,

I never had you down as the restrained type wink.gif

Seriously though, I think a critique of Martin and Malcolm is invaluable and necessary so say what cha gotta say... espcially since I suspect I will agree with you!
"To kill a woman is to kill humanity itself"

#7 SoFrolushes

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 05:11 PM

@ Toyin i wouldnt say malcom was radical or extreme. he did what most people should do seek the truth beyond what your are being told. its like once he knew the truth the real doctrinebehind his faith he was a changed man
another side
when he was telling people stop being docile it made people think. why sit back and contunually be slapped when it hurts get up and do something

to me malcom was martins flip side

Edited by JamBrit, 12 December 2005 - 04:56 PM.

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#8 Toyin

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 02:09 PM

Sorry for the delay in response. Still mad busy at the moment.

I’ve got an idea I’d like to play out. Now I’m a self confessed advocate of Malcom’s ideology but think it would be an interesting experiment for me to vigorously defend MLK’s stance whilst attacking Malcolm’s position. I need to make it clear here that I only want to test their contrasting ideologies and not denigrate the individuals themselves. This could turn ugly so I need robust opponents who won’t take my attacks personal, oh and be warned…. they will be attacks, although non violent – LOL.

I open with Martin Luther Kings assertion that the end does not justify the means. If we want a non violent end then we must use non violent means.

#9 Sankofa

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 03:29 PM

QUOTE (Toyin @ Dec 11 2005, 02:09 PM)
Sorry for the delay in response. Still mad busy at the moment.

I’ve got an idea I’d like to play out. Now I’m a self confessed advocate of Malcom’s ideology but think it would be an interesting experiment for me to vigorously defend MLK’s stance whilst attacking Malcolm’s position. I need to make it clear here that I only want to test their contrasting ideologies and not denigrate the individuals themselves. This could turn ugly so I need robust opponents who won’t take my attacks personal, oh and be warned…. they will be attacks, although non violent – LOL.

I open with Martin Luther Kings assertion that the end does not justify the means. If we want a non violent end then we must use non violent means.

Malcolm’s imaginary reply:

Surely one can imagine a situation where an action (the means which may be considered morally wrong) is used in securing a greater good.

I believe that my movement's aims are to establish a greater good (which is the liberation of African people)

If the only means available to us in achieving this greater good is deemed morally wrong, then we are perfectly justified in its use to achieve our greater good, as the good that prevails from not using our actions, will be less than if it is used.


To consider your 'If we want a non violent end then we must use non violent means' argument, we would have to make the assumption that a non-violent end is guaranteed with non-violent means.

Edited by Sankofa, 11 December 2005 - 03:31 PM.


#10 coltrane

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 04:15 PM

maybe if you might have posted it in Open forum then moved it here..
If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all. ~ Noam Chomsky

#11 Toyin

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 09:23 PM

MLK 2005: I do not disagree that your objective is to seek a better good, however a moral people cannot wilfully participate in morally wrong deed without risk of becoming immoral. A moral people would not justify the means as a moral people would recognise that a greater evil and a lesser evil are both still evil.

In contrast, we do not have to assume that a non-violent means would guarantee a non-violent end because history provides fact of this being so. The history of Ghandi and his successful defeat of the British through non violence, the history of the Nobel Peace prize winner Nelson Mandela and his peaceful and dignified transition from prisoner to president through the advocating of non violence.

Now can you show me an example where violence did not begat violence?

#12 Tunduzi

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 01:01 PM

Galtieri took the falklands. Thatcher took them back with much violence. No violent repercussions ensued following the exchange in the following 25+ years...

violence doesn't always beget violence.... even when the cause is wrong!

#13 Sankofa

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 04:19 PM

QUOTE (Toyin @ Dec 11 2005, 09:23 PM)
MLK 2005: I do not disagree that your objective is to seek a better good, however a moral people cannot wilfully participate in morally wrong deed without risk of becoming immoral. A moral people would not justify the means as a moral people would recognise that a greater evil and a lesser evil are both still evil.

In contrast, we do not have to assume that a non-violent means would guarantee a non-violent end because history provides fact of this being so. The history of Ghandi and his successful defeat of the British through non violence, the history of the Nobel Peace prize winner Nelson Mandela and his peaceful and dignified transition from prisoner to president through the advocating of non violence.

Now can you show me an example where violence did not begat violence?

MX 2005: I agree that like all peoples, we are moral agents (capable of making moral judgments), why cant we risk being immoral, if we are guaranteed a greater good, than the good that prevails from to taking the immoral action. Why should we go out of way to sacrifice ourselves to be morally 'just', compared with others? Can't we recognize that it is beneficial to sometimes act in our interests, especially when the alternative outcome due to our non-action, will never guarantee us the humanity and dignity that we bestow ourselves, in this society (thus never achieving our greater good)?


I recognize SomberSimian's example. What exactly about possible violence (assuming its necessary) in our liberation worry's you?

Edited by Sankofa, 12 December 2005 - 04:20 PM.


#14 Mezmerized

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 07:05 PM

QUOTE (SoberSimian @ Dec 12 2005, 01:01 PM)
Galtieri took the falklands. Thatcher took them back with much violence. No violent repercussions ensued following the exchange in the following 25+ years...

violence doesn't always beget violence.... even when the cause is wrong!

Well said SS....i think some people misinterprent the notion that violence begets violence. Everyone else has used some kind of violence against us, yet, they are all leaving in their lovely modern appartments without any hasle from us. One would think that if violence begets violence, then Africans all over the world should be choping off the heads of Arabs and europeans......but their brutality has just turned us into meek followers and modern day slaves.

Perhaps if we stoped just admiring our leaders and trully hear their messages, then we would remember what Malolcom said: No one can give you freedom, if you are a man, you take it......something for us to seriously munch over me thinks.

#15 Breadfruit

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 09:20 PM

Pardon me Toyin a little Artistic license, with the mind of our brother Martin character here...................







OK, let me dwell, in the intellectual world of our oppressor’s ideology.

Lets assume, for massa's sake, that violence is something wrong, when Africans implement it, but the consistently hypocritical, genocidal, nuclear bomb dropping european has some divine right to use it whenever their interests are threatened - from Columbus to Bush.

Lets me vegetate.

Violence, what is it?


Yes we have the common tabloid view of it - overt, destructive, physical force, but what else is it?




1. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.

2. Intensity or severity, as in natural phenomena; untamed force: the violence of a tornado.

3. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.

4. Vehemence of feeling or expression; fervor.



Http://www.dictionary.com


Lets me be non-violent.

How can Africans express their political desires, using feelings; be anti that which chooses to imprison, impoverish, murder, setup my people?

Should I stop thinking an acting this way? Am I displaying "chips on our shoulders" or "Blackmen, who are so filled with hate?"

Should our humanity love, and understand the evil that racism implies by denying a people their right to determine how they live, and not be dictated to or manoeuvred like animals?

Should we have no Vehemence of feeling?

When Brother Malcolm Died, they said he was full of hate - I think that man loved his people dearly - and simply spoke it, as it was and still is, that all he did? I liked him, and miss the brother.

What he did took passion, emotion, because he was not dead - unfeeling. He's avocation for physical defence, was simply an extension of his understanding that human beings will and should defend their interests and that which is important to them.

Africans will have to make our own destinies, it will not drop out of the skies to us.





What is a violent action or behaviour? Let me reflect on my people's history.


I refuse to talk in your european tongue, you cut out mine.

I refuse to be your slave, millions of my people die.

I refuse to internalise your oppressive ideology, that which says you have the right, to impose trade and military contracts that impoverish, encourage civil Wars

I organise, for unity within my people, a people who for centuries have increasing suffered since contact with your civilisation and its parasitic, culture draining existence.


You say I'm violent, even before you sell me your weapons.

You say I'm violent when I resist, causing you to dismember me, and dissolve my body in acid.

You say I'm violent because my actions, threaten your world and how it is structured

You say I'm violent because my actions, threaten your mind and how it is structured.

Yes, this untamed me, you define as violent - i see the fear in your eyes, the hatred in your words of condemnation - continuously.

The savage Maroon, the terrorist freedom fighter, the Black Extremist - this, creature of violence.



But I listen to you, and continue my vegetative journey. Yes! I am not a human being, your scientists of old, and new, may be right on that one.



But pray, listen, last night, I had a dream.

I had a dream, that one day, black boys and white boys will one day


The sound of a gunshot, stops the speaker, the thinker - he's body drops to the ground


Soon, his physical form is lifeless - yes, even unable to express intense, passionate feeling. That which he's oppressor, was so intolerable of.

As he lies there, the life, its energy, slowly departing from his young body.


The thinker finally realises what non violence, really is.

Edited by Breadfruit, 12 December 2005 - 09:31 PM.


#16 Mezmerized

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Breadfruit @ Dec 12 2005, 09:20 PM)
Pardon me Toyin a little Artistic license, with the mind of our brother Martin character here...................







OK, let me dwell, in the intellectual world of our oppressor’s ideology.

Lets assume, for massa's sake, that violence is something wrong, when Africans implement it, but the consistently hypocritical, genocidal, nuclear bomb dropping european has some divine right to use it whenever their interests are threatened - from Columbus to Bush.

Lets me vegetate.

Violence, what is it?


Yes we have the common tabloid view of it - overt, destructive, physical force, but what else is it?




1. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.

2. Intensity or severity, as in natural phenomena; untamed force: the violence of a tornado.

3. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.

4. Vehemence of feeling or expression; fervor.



Http://www.dictionary.com


Lets me be non-violent.

How can Africans express their political desires, using feelings; be anti that which chooses to imprison, impoverish, murder, setup my people?

Should I stop thinking an acting this way? Am I displaying "chips on our shoulders" or "Blackmen, who are so filled with hate?"

Should our humanity love, and understand the evil that racism implies by denying a people their right to determine how they live, and not be dictated to or manoeuvred like animals?

Should we have no Vehemence of feeling?

When Brother Malcolm Died, they said he was full of hate - I think that man loved his people dearly - and simply spoke it, as it was and still is, that all he did? I liked him, and miss the brother.

What he did took passion, emotion, because he was not dead - unfeeling. He's avocation for physical defence, was simply an extension of his understanding that human beings will and should defend their interests and that which is important to them.

Africans will have to make our own destinies, it will not drop out of the skies to us.





What is a violent action or behaviour? Let me reflect on my people's history.


I refuse to talk in your european tongue, you cut out mine.

I refuse to be your slave, millions of my people die.

I refuse to internalise your oppressive ideology, that which says you have the right, to impose trade and military contracts that impoverish, encourage civil Wars

I organise, for unity within my people, a people who for centuries have increasing suffered since contact with your civilisation and its parasitic, culture draining existence.


You say I'm violent, even before you sell me your weapons.

You say I'm violent when I resist, causing you to dismember me, and dissolve my body in acid.

You say I'm violent because my actions, threaten your world and how it is structured

You say I'm violent because my actions, threaten your mind and how it is structured.

Yes, this untamed me, you define as violent - i see the fear in your eyes, the hatred in your words of condemnation - continuously.

The savage Maroon, the terrorist freedom fighter, the Black Extremist - this, creature of violence.



But I listen to you, and continue my vegetative journey. Yes! I am not a human being, your scientists of old, and new, may be right on that one.



But pray, listen, last night, I had a dream.

I had a dream, that one day, black boys and white boys will one day


The sound of a gunshot, stops the speaker, the thinker - he's body drops to the ground


Soon, his physical form is lifeless - yes, even unable to express intense, passionate feeling. That which he's oppressor, was so intolerable of.

As he lies there, the life, its energy, slowly departing from his young body.


The thinker finally realises what non violence, really is.

Can the board say AMEN....AMEN.... clap.gif clap.gif clap.gif clap.gif

#17 Toyin

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 12:31 AM

MLK2005:

QUOTE
Galtieri took the falklands. Thatcher took them back with much violence. No violent repercussions ensued following the exchange in the following 25+ years...

violence doesn't always beget violence.... even when the cause is wrong!


My friend you state that Thatcher took them back with much violence and that is the issue we must concern ourselves with. If we are to take the role of Galtieri who used force to overcome the historic injustice of the British invasion and used an opportunistic moment to seize control then we as he did dismissed diplomacy, and encouraged our opponents to use overwhelming force to reverse any gains made and in fact maintain the status quo for as you state another 25 years without opposition.

A campaign of just violence begat a renewal of unjust violence.

QUOTE
I agree that like all peoples, we are moral agents (capable of making moral judgments), why cant we risk being immoral, if we are guaranteed a greater good, than the good that prevails from to taking the immoral action. Why should we go out of way to sacrifice ourselves to be morally 'just', compared with others? Can't we recognize that it is beneficial to sometimes act in our interests, especially when the alternative outcome due to our non-action, will never guarantee us the humanity and dignity that we bestow ourselves, in this society (thus never achieving our greater good)?


I recognize SomberSimian's example. What exactly about possible violence (assuming its necessary) in our liberation worry's you?


Minister X, you ask why we can’t risk being immoral. Well first you must stop talking of us never achieving our greater good and have faith. If we use the self same corrupt methods as those who we condemn then we become unable to argue our position from a virtuous platform. You also ask why shouldn’t we sacrifice ourselves? Well as you know I am a religious man and I am sure I do not need to repeat the tale of one who sacrificed himself to ensure we can all live today.

You stated ‘non-action’.

My brother that is not what I am advocating, I say we use non-violence. We protest, we march we use economic boycotts but we do not use violence. This is anything but non-action, but it does guarantee us that we set an example by ensuring our deeds remain pure with the humanity and dignity that clearly inhabits the souls of all African people, and indeed set an example for all humanity.

Violence is ugly. It’s application typically invites and magnifies the evil in the universe whether excercised through aggression or otherwise. What happens when a tiny minority of our people start using violence to address small issues, what happens if they become seemingly successful in their endeavours, whilst the opposition builds its opposing forces of violence. I once said in an interview that we have achieved less deaths in ten years of protest in the south (America), than ten days of riots in the north (America).

QUOTE
No one can give you freedom, if you are a man, you take it......something for us to seriously munch over me thinks.


My sister, some could argue that the european man did take his freedom. His freedom to exist in a world where he was at threat of becoming a global minority. If we now know that what he did was wrong then surely we must not repeat that very same mistake. Today there are forces of evil that are trying to terrorise us all, today more than anytime in humanity it is important we unite through peace to fight the forces of tyranny that threaten not just europeans but also all free people of the world.

QUOTE
As he lies there, the life, its energy, slowly departing from his young body.

The thinker finally realises what non violence, really is.


But my brother do you not see why we must forgive them. For it is fear that causes them to strike me down. They fear we will seek vengeance instead of justice, they fear reparations is another word for compensation. My first body was not killed for non-violence, It was killed by cowards who did not want me to speak out about an unjust war where this nation was oppressing another people who did not deserve to face the militarised American wrath. If they strike me down then another shall take my place, if they strike them down, then another and another will stand up. We have to reach the consciousness of the moral majority, they who know what their governments are doing is wrong and need guidance to walk the path of righteousness and say no more. When the shields of truth and justice are holding hands, African and european united, then no government will dare shoot upon us for then the true America would have spoken. And on that day brother the nightmare will finally become the dream.

It is for that day we should all say amen.

#18 Sankofa

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 03:00 PM

Malcolm (not a minister) X 2005: Why bother with faith when your god is said to encourage those who help themselves? My point is, we can present our argument with logic and virtue on our side, but we will never be able reason with them, to the extent that our freedom within this society is acknowledged by them (i.e. the best we can expect will be token gestures and a trivialization of our cause). What makes you think that they are so willing to act against their interest, and thus be persuaded by your argument? When I talked of 'sacrifice', I was using it to symbolize the abandonment of our collective interests, to gain the self-awarded title of 'most morally just'.

What will you do if your 'non-violent action' does not achieve the greater good that you recognize?

When America is attacked by its enemies, does it not attack them in retaliation? I do not necessary choose violence as the natural means for our liberation. I believe that we must not comprise our dignity (as this will allow others to manipulate our cause, thus trivializing it) in securing our self determination, thus a violent struggle must not be ruled out. You can compare the number of proportions of those willing to take arms on both sides, but it is not as simple, as the side with the most troops advance armaments wins (Vietnam). You also have to consider the economic effects, as this will have a bearing on the outcome.

#19 Sooofresh

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 04:30 PM

QUOTE (Sankofa @ Dec 13 2005, 03:00 PM)
Malcolm (not a minister) X 2005: Why bother with faith when your god is said to encourage those who help themselves? My point is, we can present our argument with logic and virtue on our side, but we will never be able reason with them, to the extent that our freedom within this society is acknowledged by them (i.e. the best we can expect will be token gestures and a trivialization of our cause). What makes you think that they are so willing to act against their interest, and thus be persuaded by your argument? When I talked of 'sacrifice', I was using it to symbolize the abandonment of our collective interests, to gain the self-awarded title of 'most morally just'.

What will you do if your 'non-violent action' does not achieve the greater good that you recognize?

When America is attacked by its enemies, does it not attack them in retaliation? I do not necessary choose violence as the natural means for our liberation. I believe that we must not comprise our dignity (as this will allow others to manipulate our cause, thus trivializing it) in securing our self determination, thus a violent struggle must not be ruled out. You can compare the number of proportions of those willing to take arms on both sides, but it is not as simple, as the side with the most troops advance armaments wins (Vietnam). You also have to consider the economic effects, as this will have a bearing on the outcome.

clap.gif clap.gif clap.gif


have you noticed countries that are able to protect its boundries , people and culture do so by violence against enemies........................now that might upset the bleedin heart liberals, but do look at history and see the same repatitive behaviour.................

hold on, hold on, not implying that violence is the only answer, but it shoud be used as a last meaure

also ask yourself why europeans are adament for africans to be peaceful?, to forgive.............because we all know if you put an african male against white male and let them get violent.............who will win, who will survive...............which gene would be passed down?

#20 Sankofa

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 05:02 PM

QUOTE (Sooofresh @ Dec 13 2005, 04:30 PM)
also ask yourself why europeans are adament for africans to be peaceful?

(off topic) : Yes, this makes me angry at times




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