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Failed Experiment; Ape Sperm In African Women


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#1 DSP

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 01:31 PM

I really don't have any words for this...



http://www.sky.com/s...3482528,00.html




Stalin's Breeding Plan
Updated: 09:37, Tuesday December 20, 2005
Soviet dictator Josef Stalin tried to create an invincible army by crossing humans with apes, according to secret documents.

The Kremlin chief ordered his scientists to create the mutant species that would be "resilient and resistant to hunger".

Archive papers quote him demanding the breed should be of "immense strength but with an underdeveloped brain".

Part of his terrifying plan was use the mutants to work on railway construction, according to The Sun.

Secret laboratories and ape skeletons have been found in the Black Sea town of Suchumi in Georgia, by workmen building a playground for children.

The bones are thought to come from apes captured in the 1920s and paid for by Stalin, who ordered scientist Ilia Ivanov to carry out the research.

The leader used a French research station in Guinea for the work, where African women were seized to be impregnated with ape sperm.

No pregnancies resulted but the next stage was to implant human sperm in female gorillas.

Ivanov was arrested in 1930 after his project failed and he died in a labour camp two years later.

#2 Voo

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 10:15 AM

@ DSP

Sick and depraved doesn't even come close.
"To kill a woman is to kill humanity itself"

#3 Sankofa

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 11:42 AM

QUOTE (Voo @ Dec 21 2005, 10:15 AM)
@ DSP

Sick and depraved doesn't even come close.

true.. ph34r.gif

#4 DSP

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 02:37 PM

QUOTE (Voo @ Dec 21 2005, 10:15 AM)
@ DSP

Sick and depraved doesn't even come close.

Speechless and paralyzed with anger. Makes you wonder what other experiments went on that we don't know about.

#5 SoFrolushes

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 07:27 PM

europeans are quick to call people babaric etc. they need to look in the mirror
nasty vermon
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Not my burden!!!!


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#6 newstyle

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:05 PM

Here's a bit more on that story, at the risk of getting into elaborate conspiracy theories, isn't there a gap in knowledge as to how the SIV virus jumped from apes to man as HIV?





The Kong Love Interest
The New York Times has a piece by Clive Wynne on a possible inspiration for the King Kong love interest - the attempt by a Soviet biologist to "prove evolution" by cross breeding humans with chimps in the 1920s.

The young Soviet Union, in its effort to stamp out religion, was determined to prove that men were descended from apes. In 1926, a Soviet scientist named Ilya Ivanov decided the most compelling way to do this would be to breed a humanzee: a human-chimpanzee hybrid.

Ivanov set off for a French research station in West Africa. There he inseminated three female chimpanzees with human sperm. Not his own, for he shared the colonial-era belief that the local people were more closely related to apes than he was. He stayed long enough to learn that his experiment had failed.

Next Ivanov wrote a Cuban heiress, Rosalia Abreu. Abreu was the first person to breed chimps in captivity and had a large menagerie outside Havana. Ivanov asked if any of her male chimpanzees might be available to inseminate a Russian volunteer known to posterity only as 'G."

Now why anyone would think that cross-breeding humans and chimps would prove evolution is beyond me. Buffon, back in the 1780s had tried cross-breeding species to show that the concept species was arbitrary, and that a limited form of common descent united all cats, as it did all cattle, sheep and goats, and various fowl. Buffon was prior to evolutionary ideas, with one exception of no influence (Pierre Maupertuis). He wasn't trying to show that evolution happened, but that local climates and soils affected species more widely than had previously been considered (he also hated and opposed Linnaean ideas, especially the taxonomic ranks).

Hybridisation has always been known. Aristotle discusses it in the History of animals, Book VIII, chapter 28 (605b22-607a7). Aristotle considers what will produce variety in animal life - the main cause is locality, including climate. In Africa ("Libya"), "animals of diverse species meet, on account of the rainless climate, at watering-places, and there pair together; and such pairs will breed if they be nearly of the same size and have periods of gestation of the same length". He goes on to say, "Elsewhere also offspring are born to heterogeneous pairs; thus in Cyrene the wolf and the bitch will couple and breed; and the Laconian hound is a cross between the fox and the dog." He then reports that "they" say that the Indian dog is a bitch-tiger third
generation hybrid.

Linnaeus famously found hybridisation in the genus Peloria, forcing him to revise his species fixism somewhat. This was widely known in the early 19thC - and yet nobody thought that it was "proof" of the recent evolutionary views of Lamarck. If anything, it would have been proof of Buffon's views, before Lamarck. At the end of the 19thC, Flaubert could write, satirically, of two muddle headed amateurs seeking to breed and eat anything they could:

They opened Buffon again and went into ecstasies at the peculiar tastes of certain animals.
...
They wanted to try some abnormal mating.
...
They made fresh attempts with hens and a duck, a mastiff and a sow, in the hope that monsters would result, but quite failing to understand anything about the question of species. This is the word that designates a group of individuals whose descendants reproduce, but animals classified as different species may reproduce, and others, included in the same species, have lost the ability to do so.
[Flaubert 1976, 87]

So why would Ilya Ivanov think this would prove evolution (and even worse, disprove God)? It has to do with the nature of Marxist dialectic. Marx was, like Darwin, a philosopher of change, but the basis for change he used wasn't the undirected and tree-like change of evolution; rather it was the progressive and linear change taken by Hegel from Christian providentialism. For Marx and his followers, there was a necessary sequence that had to be followed by historical necessity. For Darwin, there simply wasn't. But in Stalin's Russia, biology was subordinate to political theory, and so evolution had to occur in the same manner as the predicted (and already falsified even then!) evolution of human society.

So hybridising a chimp and human would show that the dialectic of history had formed humans from prior apes. And this view of history, in which apes like chimps are less evolved than humans, is linear, progressive and much more like Lamarck's view of evolution than Darwin's, in which humans and chimps represent independent branches of the evolutionary tree, and in which neither is more evolved than the other except with respect to some particular traits.

Whether Wynne is correct that this inspired King Kong (one of my favourite childhood movies, just like Peter Jackson) or not is irrelevant (although I think it's a long bow). But in no way did Ivanov's experiment test evolution as we know it. Instead, it was perhaps another test of a failed theory, of the dialectic of history.

#7 newstyle

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:17 PM

Translated from Russian may contain grammatical errors


Cradle of the evolution Russian Frankenshteyn attempted to scrape monkey with the man


In the walls of the hospital control of gulag the copy of new race, which was the covered with fur essence with an increase in 1,8 meters, was brought out. Only deficiency in the man- monkey - incapacity to the reproduction. This sensational information with the reference to a certain Soviet doctor was given in the sensational book of Belgian biologist Bernard Eyvel'sona "riddle of the frozen person", and it exploded peace. How this a sensation can be truthful?

In Russia in the 20's important scientific Ivanov attempted to create the hybrid person, who "to trem-chetyrem to years gathers improbable force, it is much less sensitive to the pain, it is indiscriminate in the food... The possibilities of use are limitless - from the work in the damp faces to the soldier service ". For the experiment, which had to crown its scientific career, Russian Frankenshteyn was prepared with years. Its work on the artificial insemination of animals gave sensational results and anticipated not only appearance of children "from the test tube", but also experiences on the cloning.

When in the beginning of May of 1926 to Mikhail Bulgakov with the search came unexpectedly the colleagues OF OGPU, writer it could not to assume that the State Security Agents together with the diaries will take away its manuscript "canine heart". The narrative, in which dealt the discussion with the unpredictable consequences of scientific discoveries, too resembled the dangerous experiences, conducted at that time in THE USSR. If in professor Preobrazhenskiy's operating room monstrous homunculus with the canine heart and the disposition of the owner of life was borne, then in the Sukhumi simian nursery appearances to the light of the hybrid of monkey and man expected.
"artificial insemination can be carry ouied even when to obtain from the male its seed liquid impossibly either in view of its extreme savagery and force, or in view of the difficulties, connected with the catching with its living", wrote professor Ivanov. His procedure made it possible to cause "conception from the father, who not only already died up to the moment of insemination, but also generally no longer there exists in nature". Prototype of the contemporary bank of sperm?

At the experimental station of preserve Askani4- it is new professor Ivanov were derived the zebrulas, the bucks, sernobykov, bison- half-breeds. It crossed white mouse with the guinea pig, hare- hare with the rabbit, was obtained rat- mouse posterity. But all these not existing in living nature hybrids were only prelude to realizing of reckless idea to obtain posterity from the monkey and man.

After securing by the support of French Pasteur institute, professor began to be prepared for the expedition into West Africa. According to the most conservative estimate, the expenditures for experiment were 15 thousand dollars (about 30 thousand rubles for those times) - sum for the poor Soviet State imposing. A question was discussed at the special session of the academy of sciences. Not all scientific heavenly bodies supported associate. In particular, the professor Of ivantsov, the scientific consultant of Glavnauka, doubted the success of experiences, since "the crossings between different forms of one and the same kind give the cross-breeds, which in the enormous majority of the cases prove to be barren". Furthermore, it voiced the fears that the fertilization of the female of gorilla by the seed of man, and woman, "even the native of French Guinea", by the seed of the male of gorilla will be in conflict with criminal code, to say nothing of the uncertainty of the lawful position of issue.

Information about the prepared experiment filtered even for the ocean and caused the furious reaction of the Ku Klux Klan. Then Soviet newspapers rejoiced: "in the opinion of professor Ivanov, is not excluded the possibility of obtaining with the crossing of the antropoidnykh monkeys of forms those more gifted than their parents". In a flash responded tens of volunteers, finished "into the glory of our expensive fatherland to without any objection transfer the heaviest deprivations". Among them there were not only the doctors and the scientific workers, for whom the participation in the exotic expedition was of professional interest, but also simple peasants. But scientist took with himself only son. In the summer of 1926 they left for French Guinea.

On the steamship, which swims to the African shores, the professor greedily questions fellow-travellers about the facts of the theft of women by monkeys. Collocutors tell only about the case, when chimpanzee began to tear to death three women in the village. "rapes it was established not, notes Ilya Ivanov. - 0dnako sexual inclination to the women in chimpanzee is strongly expressed ". And it here cites as an example the history of the manual monkey of masculine sex, which with the encounter with the girls revealed great interest and it raised by it skirts.

Referring to the governor general of West Africa Mr. to card, professor writes that freezing to shower story about the gorilla- opressors, who so passionately compressed in the embraces of victims, that in the latter did not maintain and broke the chests.

Later in his report Ilya Ivanovich wrote: "as far as obtaining the hybrids between the man and the anthropomorphous monkeys is concerned, until now not it was noted not one reliable fact. Negroes relate to the monkeys, and especially to the chimpanzee as to the lowest human race. Women, raped by monkeys, are considered oskvernennymi, and they without leaving a trace disappear ".

The laboratory placements of scientific station in Kindii to Russian professor granted Pasteur institute. The monkeys, that reached sexual maturity, was required for the experiment, but young individual- adolescents usually fell into the captivity to hunters. Catching was conducted by barbarous methods. Aborigines forced to the tree simian family and lit bonfire all around. Animals in panic lost senses from the horror jumped to the earth, where hunters with the cudgels waited them. It is not surprising that the living trophies were delivered to the station in the lamentable state, with the breaks, by burns and injuries. This, of course, it was not borne for Ilya Ivanovich. Without considering the expenditures, it extracted from Paris network. But neither exponential round-up nor obeshchannaya reward into 1000 francs helped. Black hunters did not want to risk by life.

"is made injection intra-sheathed a seed of man To babette and To sivette under the guise of the treatment of monkeys. It passed with the very nervous situation also in the inconvenient conditions. Danger from the side of monkeys, the need for hiding... "- wrote professor in his diary. The scientist hushes up on the donors of sperm for the monkeys. True, in the estimate figures the sum into 1000 dollars "to the payment of the services of both the men and the women of the local population". But hardly these were the service of so delicate a property.

Before to conduct manipulation, monkey they lulled to sleep. Then the lower part of the body of primacy took out of the cell and with the aid of the catheter injected approximately one-and-a-half cube of sperm.
It is known that professor Ivanov had himself the intentions to artificially impregnate natives without their consent, but the presidium of the academy of sciences expressed itself against. Especially frightened Soviet scientists the possibility of the "insemination of pygmies" because of the divergence in the growth of monkeys and women of undersized tribe.

Up to the moment of the end of expedition three monkeys underwent artificial insemination by human sperm. Ilya Ivanovich prepared for the passage into the Sukhumi simian nursery of the ten additional individuals of masculine and feminine sex. After the two week tossing of anthropomorphous leisure in Marseille awaited. In France the profits on 11 marmosets, two fell ill and passed away in the way. Simply they rejected them outside. Among them there was the monkey, which they subjected to artificial insemination. Dissections on the steamship, naturally, did not make; therefore "test" to the pregnancy did not take place.

Professor terrible survived that its wards fell ill one after another. It, of course, was ready to losses, but not this scale. In the diary the sad records appear: "very plokh №8", "№ye in the completely desperate condition", the "bollard of №y2", "is the basiges for thinking that we can lose all monkeys", it darkly establishes toward the end of the journey.

In the Sukhumi nursery of monkeys thoroughly they treated, but they melted on the eyes, dying from dysentery and tuberculosis. Finally disease took away the life of the impregnated females Of babetty and Sivetty. In the protocol of the dissection, produced 1.10.27 V of Sukhumi, it is noted, that "the body of womb, ovaries in the state of atrophy. External sex organs are wrinkled and also in the state of atrophy ".

However, professor Ivanov did not surrender. He was convinced that it is necessary to increase the number of experiences of the artificial insemination of the females of chimpanzee by the sperm of man. Furthermore, Ilya Ivanovich intended to please woman- volunteers, ready to carry the uncommon young in his womb. "the latter to organize in Africa much more difficult and is more complex than in europe or. Women, who desire to undergo experience, to incomparably more easily find in europe, than in Africa. For this kind of the experiences to sufficiently have 2--3 adult males ".

On 13 December, 1930, of scientist took under the arrest. Professors accused of the aid of the international bourgeoisie, the realization of hostile activity against THE USSR and the espionage. They gave to him 5 years of camps. Through half a year the sentence they replaced with dispatch into Alma Ata. On 20 March, 1932, of professor Ivanov did not become. Great Russian physiologist Ivan Pavlov signed obituary.

Commentary Anatoliy bakaya, chairman of department of genetics and breeding of animals of Moscow veterinary academy, doctor of agricultural sciences, of professor: - Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov primary attention gave to the artificial fertilization of animals. He created his unique procedure. Indeed one outstanding producer can give ten, thousands of descendants, who repeat its qualities. Now in the stock raising they began to use a method of the transplantation of embryos, and from one elite cow it is possible to obtain 40, 50 and even 60 calves per year.

Darwin never said that man occurred from the monkey. The rumors walked about the Sukhumi simian preserve, that supposedly there were conducted the experiences on the women. How this is reliable? In man of 46 chromosomes, in chimpanzee - 48. During the confluence would be formed the zygote, which must be divided, but where will disappear excess chromosome? A number of cells with the unbalanced genome is formed. They will perish. In the beginning of past century genetics only was conceived, science she did not know that with the hybridization they were important not only the number and the form of chromosomes, but also the gene pattern, which the parents bear. Indeed in each chromosome is contained an enormous quantity of genes. Furthermore, it is not possible to compare the testosterone of monkey and man - they have different hormones, different immune system. If this was then simply, then it would be possible to take the organs of monkeys and to transplant to man.

I was in the preserve Askani4- new. There they were created, for example, zebrulas - hybrids of domestic horse and zebra. They remained barren. The odd collection of chromosomes is not capable of the reproduction, from the domestic horse with its 64 chromosomes and the donkey with 62 is born sterile mule.
Today genetics are used the methods of the hybridization of cells - the hybrids of man and animal are created. American scientists conducted experiments with obtaining of the cell, which has the collection of human and mouse chromosomes. Stem cells of man inject in the embryo of sheep. Work on the creation of transgenic pigs is conducted. It would seem, why human gene to reseat pig? But if we reseat 5--6 human genes, then organs of animal can be used for the transplantation to man, and they will be received as human. Purpose of these experiments - not the removal of chimeras, but the search for the new ways of treating the diseases.

Editorial staff thanks the central Public Archive of Moscow region for help in the preparation of this material.


http://www.mk.ru/num...rticle66726.htm

#8 Voo

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:20 AM

It's not the first time such heinous acts have been perpetrated against African people and against nature!!

The Tuskegee Experiments

In 1932, the Public Health Service, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began a study in Macon County, Alabama, to record the natural history of syphilis in hopes of justifying treatment programs for blacks. It was called the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male."

The study involved 600 black men--399 with syphilis and 201 who did not have the disease. Researchers told the men they were being treated for "bad blood," a local term used to describe several ailments, including syphilis, anemia, and fatigue. The true nature of the experiment had to be kept from the subjects to ensure their cooperation.

The study was meant to discover how syphilis affected blacks as opposed to whites the theory being that whites experienced more neurological complications from syphilis, whereas blacks were more susceptible to cardiovascular damage. How this knowledge would have changed clinical treatment of syphilis is uncertain.

By the end of the experiment, 28 of the men had died directly of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis.

To ensure that the men would show up for a painful and potentially dangerous spinal tap, the PHS doctors misled them with a letter full of promotional hype: " Last Chance for Special Free Treatment." The fact that autopsies would eventually be required was also concealed.

As a doctor explained, "If the colored population becomes aware that accepting free hospital care means a post-mortem, every darky will leave Macon County..." Even the Surgeon General of the United States participated in enticing the men to remain in the experiment, sending them certificates of appreciation after 25 years in the study.
"To kill a woman is to kill humanity itself"

#9 Proafrican

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 02:36 PM

If you open up your minds you will see that the scope for human wickedness is immeasurable.

Then enlighten it to the thought that it has happened and is happening for real.

Scary.

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#10 Agent

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (JamBrit @ Dec 21 2005, 07:27 PM)
europeans are quick to call people babaric etc. they need to look in the mirror
nasty vermon


I don't think Stormfront is really representive of european views do you?

Sorry, but you are really making yourself look silly by even trying to quantify any kind of european view of Africans.

Tell me, what do left handed people think about the Tories?

Oh I know, what do people in the bloodgroup AB+ think about rap music?

#11 Mogho Naaba

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Agent @ Jan 4 2006, 07:52 PM)
I don't think Stormfront is really representive of european views do you?

Uhhhh....yes....they represent european views PERFECTLY.

#12 newstyle

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:54 PM

QUOTE (Agent @ Jan 4 2006, 07:52 PM)
QUOTE (JamBrit @ Dec 21 2005, 07:27 PM)
europeans are quick to call people babaric etc. they need to look in the mirror
nasty vermon


I don't think Stormfront is really representive of european views do you?

Sorry, but you are really making yourself look silly by even trying to quantify any kind of european view of Africans.

Tell me, what do left handed people think about the Tories?

Oh I know, what do people in the bloodgroup AB+ think about rap music?

The views of europeans towards Africans is clear and has been for hundreds of years as Tuskegee and the ape experiments prove. If you doubt us look up the works of Kant, Hume, Thomas Carlyle amongst others.

#13 Agent

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 12:03 AM

QUOTE (newstyle @ Jan 4 2006, 11:54 PM)
QUOTE (Agent @ Jan 4 2006, 07:52 PM)
QUOTE (JamBrit @ Dec 21 2005, 07:27 PM)
europeans are quick to call people babaric etc. they need to look in the mirror
nasty vermon


I don't think Stormfront is really representive of european views do you?

Sorry, but you are really making yourself look silly by even trying to quantify any kind of european view of Africans.

Tell me, what do left handed people think about the Tories?

Oh I know, what do people in the bloodgroup AB+ think about rap music?

The views of europeans towards Africans is clear and has been for hundreds of years as Tuskegee and the ape experiments prove. If you doubt us look up the works of Kant, Hume, Thomas Carlyle amongst others.


Oh well that told me then.

Off I get's into the next cab up to Brixton to lynch me some Africans.

Sorry but you can't quantify the views of europeans (Or any other large section of people for that matter). Well you can pretend to, but you'd be hopelessly wrong.

I can only tell you so many times that your shoe laces are undone. If you want to keep on running with your shoelaces undone, I'll help you when you fall over, even if it the deed will be thankless.

#14 newstyle

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 12:27 AM

what I'm on about is the world view and structures created and maintained by europeans of Africans as inferior. As for lynching in Brixton, you're too late David Copeland already got there with his nail bomb.

#15 Agent

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 12:41 AM

QUOTE (newstyle @ Jan 5 2006, 12:27 AM)
what I'm on about is the world view and structures created and maintained by europeans of Africans as inferior. As for lynching in Brixton, you're too late David Copeland already got there with his nail bomb.


Please...I wasn't serious about the Brixton thing...I grew up there. David Copeland can rot.

There is a big difference between status quo powerbases / institutions and what people actually think.

Basically, I'm wondering whether your thoughts and opinions regarding europeans, influences how you treat individual europeans in your every day lives...and I'm talking about more than whether you choose to be generous enough to dish out blind trust.

Sounds to me like you're playing some very wreckless word games. I think you know how people would read what your posting, trouble is, I think you're changing your line when people bite your bait.

#16 newstyle

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 12:50 AM

Bite my bait?


I'm quite aware of your "humour" the question is by assuming I'm not , are you displaying the symptoms of the long line of european thought by assuming my "inferior" African mind does not get your "humour"?

#17 Agent

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 12:56 AM

QUOTE (newstyle @ Jan 5 2006, 12:50 AM)
Bite my bait?


I'm quite aware of your "humour" the question is by assuming I'm not , are you displaying the symptoms of the long line of european thought by assuming my "inferior" African mind does not get your "humour"?


Nope. It's just that if you word your post in way that implies you didn't get my humour, then I have to word mine accordinaly.

Besides, the data from your little expiriement could easily be contaminated. I may think you pretty backward for your posts rather than for being African. It just so happens that I don't.


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#18 newstyle

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 01:05 AM

My good lord the Ultimate Validation, A european does not think me to be inferior! I feel so much better. Now Agent let us be off! forget all the race thing that only exists in the minds of the PC brigade and let us fight the mother of all fights - Good old British class struggle!

Edited by newstyle, 05 January 2006 - 01:06 AM.


#19 Agent

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 01:21 AM

QUOTE (newstyle @ Jan 5 2006, 01:05 AM)
My good lord the Ultimate Validation, A european does not think me to be inferior! I feel so much better. Now Agent let us be off! forget all the race thing that only exists in the minds of the PC brigade and let us fight the mother of all fights - Good old British class struggle!


With sarcasm like that, you're more British than you'd ever care to admit.

biggrin.gif

Seriously though, sometimes, only sometimes mind you, here I can just see the other end of the spectrum. But hey, would I should I let that suprise or dissapoint me.

Yeah I do think the class struggle is bigger than the race struggle. I never said the world is shining light of racial equality. I never said anything from any race struggle should be discarded to fight any kind of class struggle.

I've been reading the political correctness thread with interest. I have my thoughts, but I'm not going to go wading into every thread where I see something I disagree with, because I'll end up derailing such threads with stuff that's less important, than what actually is.




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